tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post1352013098944693678..comments2024-03-27T20:37:08.065+01:00Comments on Defence and Freedom: Individual visible spectrum camouflageUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-56709973271514966292020-06-07T22:18:28.911+02:002020-06-07T22:18:28.911+02:00or this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy0zu1oXRr...or this<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hy0zu1oXRroS Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-88974348268896061162020-06-07T22:15:27.062+02:002020-06-07T22:15:27.062+02:00Some people get born as a sponge and soak up knowl...Some people get born as a sponge and soak up knowledge like crazy. Stuff happens when you squeeze a bit.<br /><br />Seriously, it's from dozens of sources. Military service, physics, videos, military manuals, online news, some websites about camo patterns, military history books and some own observations.<br /><br />You might like camopedia.orgS Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-83213664170265791122020-06-07T20:51:22.066+02:002020-06-07T20:51:22.066+02:00How did you learn all of this stuff about camo? I ...How did you learn all of this stuff about camo? I have been trying to learn about camo for a while, but the sources I have found just by googling are awful. The Wikipedia article on it is useless, and I can't find anything else remotely as useful as this blog post by googling. Is the info you got mostly in books and other sources that doesn't directly have to do with camo, hence being unsearchable?jambegi_zalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05298124616691323965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-35182131887952094632018-05-20T20:50:01.220+02:002018-05-20T20:50:01.220+02:00I can think of two reasons why troops have the sam...I can think of two reasons why troops have the same pattern all over rather than two seperate ones. First one is probably more likely overall: Cost-Benefit. While your average hunter can afford to buy two different patterns (in fact it probably costs him no more to buy two patterns than two items of clothing in one pattern)for a military that needs to worry about paying for intellectual properties and setting up production lines etc the benefit of having a light upper and a dark lower camouflage scheme isn't enough to offset the cost. <br /><br />The other one I'd suppose is probably to do with how soldiers operate as opposed to hunters. I'm guessing most Hunters spend a lot of time sitting in Hides or similar upright postures? I suspect the advantage you get from having two different camo patterns is more or less negated when you're doing a lot of work in prone position, leopard crawling, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-86999778508447403822018-05-14T10:08:03.639+02:002018-05-14T10:08:03.639+02:00Different colours react very differently in the NI...Different colours react very differently in the NIR/FLRI area. So it is not only about additives, but this additives are absolut necessary to make some colours work in this spectrum. The additives are therefore an necessity to compensate for the wrong colours and could be spared if you use the right colours and the right fabric. One could therefore create an camopattern which would work fine in the NIR/FLIR spectrum without such additives (although such additives would help even further).<br /><br />And especially disadvantagous in this spectrum is the named coyote brown which without the named additives shines realy in the invisible spectrum.<br /><br />Some last point about "black": It must not be black to create the wished effects, but any dark tone and imo a realy dark gray (anthrazit) or dark brown would work even better than true black. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-33303207367279003062018-05-11T10:40:57.748+02:002018-05-11T10:40:57.748+02:00My information on NIR and far IR camouflage techno...My information on NIR and far IR camouflage technology isn't nearly as deep as about visual spectrum, but I believe you make a wrong assumption here:<br />NIR/FIR camo is not so much about colours. NIR (780...1,200 nm wavelength) camo in particular is about additives treatments (and whether they were washed out yet).<br />Some camo clothes are no good NIR camo because they didn't get the (extra cost) additives, for example camo clothing produced for civilians (incl. hunter camo) and camo produced for 3rd world armies that don't expect much NVG-equipped opposition.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-33513151987997821832018-05-11T09:05:12.737+02:002018-05-11T09:05:12.737+02:00But as said, all of this have much room for improv...But as said, all of this have much room for improvement and i agree insofern with last dingo, that a photorealistic print of plants would be superior to an highly abstract pattern and therefore the better camo pattern is imo the best theoretically available pattern (and is used by no one and even not available commercilay at the moment).<br /><br />http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KI3IRH6RxSs/THLilDnCTZI/AAAAAAAABWs/IvBe6Ht5n-Q/s320/GTX+alpha+1.jpg<br /><br />http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KI3IRH6RxSs/TLOnoDPr8TI/AAAAAAAABpg/Jd-PXfgD5WM/s1600/GTX+IR+1.jpg<br /><br />http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KI3IRH6RxSs/TLOnhUABIiI/AAAAAAAABpU/_va4bzribIo/s1600/GTX+IR,+forest+2.jpg<br /><br />http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KI3IRH6RxSs/TLOnoDPr8TI/AAAAAAAABpg/Jd-PXfgD5WM/s1600/GTX+IR+1.jpg<br /><br />http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KI3IRH6RxSs/TLOnfHG6d8I/AAAAAAAABpQ/C_BLbjZJFQQ/s1600/GTX+IR,+road+1.jpg<br /><br />https://domhyde.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/gtx-large-swatch-demo.jpg<br /><br />The following picture shows also the importance of black especially in the invisible spectrum, in which camos which are highly efficient in many areas in the visible spectrum are bad in the non visible spectrum, here for example MULTICAM:<br /><br />http://www.hyperstealth.com/GenIII-NVG/1026264_563674733670700_46353797_o.jpg<br /><br />http://www.hyperstealth.com/baseline/Multicam-OCP-Multi-US4CES-Transitional-NIR-Pre-Post_small.jpg<br /><br />Which is highly used now even by russian and other special forces and is near to useless in the invisible spectrum. The proliferation of such technology to terrorist, guerillas, hybrid enemies etc will make such camo like multicam highly questionable.<br /><br />Here some more (of cause not objective but for marketing the usforces pattern) infos about camo:<br /><br />http://www.hyperstealth.com/camo-improvement/index.html<br /><br />And especially about the non visible spectrum:<br /><br />http://www.hyperstealth.com/GenIII-NVG/index.html<br /><br /><br />To the question why the fur of animals is mainly brown and not green which is often used as an argument for brown camo:<br /><br />It is very difficult to produce green fur. That is the simple answer for that. Animals without fur are often gray-green if they need to hide (frogs, lizards and so on) Moreover one the real masters of camouflage amongst the animals, the SLOTH has a gray-green fur. The sloth achieved that in incooperating green alga into its fur wich is gray naturally. The alga grow in the fur without harming the sloth. The resulting gray-green colour is extremly effective in camo and much better than any form of brown.<br /><br />https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fc/e6/3a/fce63a556b09d34f5e18e2d03f7d55a6--sloths-camouflage.jpg<br /><br />https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Hoffman%27s_Two-toed_Sloth%2C_Monteverde.jpg<br /><br />https://www.interesly.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/three-toed-sloth-wet-003.jpg<br /><br />It is a kind of natural ghillie. So as written it is not only about green vs brown or about the pattern but also the 3-D effect is especilly important.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-58954625295086522142018-05-11T09:05:00.541+02:002018-05-11T09:05:00.541+02:00One ad on too animal camo and the green vs brown d...One ad on too animal camo and the green vs brown debate. Of cause the following is now a little bit off topic, because the thread is about visible spectrum camo but, imo you cannot divide the visible spectrum and the invisible spectrum. this would be an very heavy failure.<br /><br />And here is the main point: many shades of brown are not good in the invisible spectrum, especilly coyote brown is very bad in comparison to gray-green in the NIR / FLIR etc area.<br /><br />So a uniform in a coyote-brown / brown dominated camo pattern, like the MARPAT pattern of the usmc or the Soldier 2000 pattern of south africa or for example the ROOIVALK Pattern of the pakistanis (which is amazingly effective in the visible spectrum in many areas) they are all not very good in the NIR / FLIR etc spectrum. The same for the hunting pattern REALTREE XTRA last dingo showed here.<br /><br />So as one can and should not divide the visible and the invisible spectrum, a brown dominated camo uniform is no good and especially coyote brown is very disadvantogous. A uniform dominated by gray-green would be much better. <br /><br />Interestingly the russians seem to have recognised that and the new russian standard camo, the EMR Pattern (Tsifra) which is not so superior in the visible spectrum and gray/green dominated is interestingly realy good in the not visible spectrum. The same with the russian version of the YEGER pattern which is a greener variant of the finnish standard camo pattern and of cause especilly the CADPAT pattern, which is highly effective in the visible and in the invisible spectrum.<br /><br />http://img.bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/BEMIL085/upload/2005/09/CADPAT3man1024x768.jpg<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-20436416214730354752018-05-07T22:32:09.192+02:002018-05-07T22:32:09.192+02:00The white pants and green jacket combo seems to be...The white pants and green jacket combo seems to be by far the most common example of mixing of camoflage clothing. In the Alps it fits surprisingly often as wind and sun make in many occasions quick work of snow on branches and trees. <br /><br />Do you have cotton for the oversuits like to oldish German reversibles? Not so noisey but very clammy when they get wet which they will. <br /><br />Firn<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-26239400999755366552018-05-07T22:00:24.237+02:002018-05-07T22:00:24.237+02:00The Sneaky pull-over has indeed a couple of intere...The Sneaky pull-over has indeed a couple of interesting properties. <br /><br />In my limited experience it seems to cool you compared to a shirt alone if the sun shines on you.° I made some limited comparisions to confirm this impression today and there is a difference. <br /><br />This needs clearly more testing but I guess the thin, partly erected cloth strips weaved into the net work as a whole like a distributed sun shade. Air can easily flow throw the suit and carry away heat. <br /><br />With 270g for the upper part alone it is light enough and allows you to carry it with you so that you can wear traditional European hunting clothing while walking about. In the right circumstances you can pull it over in no time. <br /><br />The baggy fine mesh* also helps to keep European mosquitos out. Never tested the difference for obvious reasons, maybe I will :)<br /><br />In a military context it may have little durability but with stiching one should get good enough service life out of it. <br /><br />Firn<br /><br />°Obviously you don't want to be there in the first place but it happens. <br /><br />*I'm rather tall and use the biggest available... <br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-9488248461956886592018-05-06T22:25:17.630+02:002018-05-06T22:25:17.630+02:00In the Norwegian army, during the winter, white pa...In the Norwegian army, during the winter, white pants with green jacket is worn. Since in the forest, the ground is white (where your legs are) and the green bushes and branches are at torso height. Njkuyhhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12327455702642272127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-4862849405365773422018-05-04T00:10:34.320+02:002018-05-04T00:10:34.320+02:00Using different patterns on the body can make much...Using different patterns on the body can make much sense if you combine the right ones (a question mainly of trial and error). For example actually if often combine Pencott Greenzone with Pencott Badlands in the area i life and the combination of this two patterns together is amazing (in my specific area). Why the military does not do it ? For cost reasons mainly and for stupidity. The same with weapons and boots in black - there is no single reason why they must be black etc<br /><br />The same with half-camo-nets, hoods and so on, which increase the camo immense. Are only used in special forces, Long Range Recce etc and even there not so much as one would think.<br /><br />I want to give an practical example of an in my thinking ideal camo as a complete system:<br /><br />http://pantex.com.ua/images/camo/milit/namerica/usa/a-tacsFG/15.jpg<br /><br />https://i.pinimg.com/originals/96/f8/e5/96f8e5a2249d27f11d5c6f3e94990868.jpg<br /><br />But even some 3 - D Leaves on an camo uniform increase the perfomance of the camo immense. This 3 - D Element is the main thing most military camo misses. It would be extremly simple and cheap to give the soldiers such leaf material so that they can then sew it to their uniform and add it to their other equipment. I mean stuff like that:<br /><br />https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51gwX0sIe1L._SX450_.jpg<br /><br />which the soldiers than sew on their uniforms (not too much and primarly in the upper part of the body to not hinder movement etc)<br /><br />Add gloves like that:<br /><br />https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1LhwaNF7XL._SX355_.jpg<br /><br />and a head-net:<br /><br />https://z-aim.com/images/zoom/hunters_spec_lovcamo_mask2-1-.jpg<br /><br />and nearly every modern camo pattern will become highly effective without hindering movement and heating up etc like an ghillie but nearly as good.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-51997277747003238282018-05-03T23:54:46.976+02:002018-05-03T23:54:46.976+02:00Tigerstipe wouuld be the most known example of suc...Tigerstipe wouuld be the most known example of such an pattern. And Tiger Stripe, which you critisized works very good in many enviroments.<br /><br />Especially if you are lying on the ground or you are crawling, kneeling etc and then this is not longer a horizontally-dominated pattern as you wrote.<br /><br />But Tiger Stripe does not work so well in a wide area of different vegetation. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-54772409057206146202018-05-03T22:48:49.308+02:002018-05-03T22:48:49.308+02:00Camouflage is one of those big confusing areas in ...Camouflage is one of those big confusing areas in which it is difficult to spot the key elements. <br /><br />There is something about military camouflage which I have never quite understood even if I can see some reasons for it. Why do troops practically always have the same camo pattern for the head/neck area, upper and lower body?<br /><br />It may be sophisticated patterns but why not use a lighter brownish variant for pants and a greenish one for the top?<br /><br />For closed country like forests and bush those airy 3D Pull-overs in the fashion of the very light Deerhunter Sneaky might be a fine idea. There are several takes on the form and pattern with the Sneaky* being very light and fairly quiet. So far for the visual spectrum. Perhaps two or three per squad could suffice for the 2-3 scout elements moving ahead to keep the weight down. They might be rotated for specific duties. <br /><br />A bush rag with a wide hood limited to the the shoulders/upper arms and some overhang over the back might be a more universal piece of equimpent. Perhaps a stronger net with a less complete 3D pattern makes more sense to allow local attachements. <br /><br />Firn<br /><br />*I'm using one for deer stalking and crows, in the former case often only the upper piece. For military use letting it flow over the ruck and/or closing it behind the back might make more sense to allow frontal access and cover for the backbag. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-74183943439664288462018-05-03T21:34:44.950+02:002018-05-03T21:34:44.950+02:00I know about the different colour perceptions
http...I know about the different colour perceptions<br />http://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.de/2016/10/colours-and-camouflages.html<br />but the patterns used by evolutionary optimised animals should still be worthwhile for military testing.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-67991187198854570182018-05-03T20:44:12.975+02:002018-05-03T20:44:12.975+02:00U.S. flight suits (grayish green) can absolutely d...U.S. flight suits (grayish green) can absolutely disappear even in the desert.<br /><br />Excellent points about human eyesight versus animal eyesight. Humans have much better color vision. Animals tend to have better field of view. Of course many animals perceive different wavelengths of light too.<br /><br />GABAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-66485253466219324202018-05-03T19:02:43.226+02:002018-05-03T19:02:43.226+02:00The reason why military camo (with some few except...The reason why military camo (with some few exceptions) does not copy the camo of stalking predators (animals) is, that the human eye detects things (very) differently from the eyes the prey of this animals do. So camo against humans does often not work so well with animals and to the opposite some camo which excells against animals would not work so much with humans.<br /><br />For the Brown vs Green Debate: i have long thought the same way and regarded brown the better colour, but in the last years i became more and more convinced that green (grey-green as the ground colour like in the former bw uniform) is better than brown in most enviroments, even in the semi-arid / arid ones (with the exception of deserts, arctic etc of cause). Even in an urban enviroment today there is much green in many cities worldwide. In cities without much green camo is moreover not so relevant for infantry etc because their the houses and the buildings will give you a hide.<br /><br />One camo pattern i especially find very superior is most unknown to nearly everybody:<br /><br />https://sites.google.com/site/bettercamo/science<br /><br />There is also an special desert / rocks / urban enviroment pattern from the same creator:<br /><br />http://blog.predatorbdu.com/2012/08/better-camo-by-defiant-defense-rox.html Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-74487775560865565742018-05-02T23:51:33.234+02:002018-05-02T23:51:33.234+02:00I confess I don't know much about the technica...I confess I don't know much about the technicalities involved, but screening fro thermal imagers is obviously going to become ever more important as some armies move to general issue of thermal or multi spectrum individual weapon sights.Chris Werbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12401452513193996839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-16597018876954287152018-05-02T18:18:24.121+02:002018-05-02T18:18:24.121+02:00Solution dyed ranger green (more brownish-grey tha...Solution dyed ranger green (more brownish-grey than green) is also a good monochrome camouflage.<br /><br />Some form of reversible smock is likely the solution to endless varieties of camouflage. <br /><br />At some point, thermal and other sensors are just too effective.<br /><br />GAB<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-7139499742923224722018-05-02T10:52:35.036+02:002018-05-02T10:52:35.036+02:00Well, I mentioned improvised camo, but by its very...Well, I mentioned improvised camo, but by its very nature there's little that can be said. It depends too much on the environment.<br /><br />And positioning (as well as exploiting microterain for concealment) belongs to fieldcraft, but not to camouflage as far as I know.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-29869477313562612062018-05-02T09:07:15.598+02:002018-05-02T09:07:15.598+02:00I think you should cover improvised and on the spo...I think you should cover improvised and on the spot camouflage.<br /><br />For example, positioning is very important. You don't want a spot that highlights your silhouette. Examples being the top of hills or crests. The next issue is the shadow created by your hiding spot, since you need a good field of view. This is solved with sniper veils. They hide the "hole" and allow good vision out. <br /><br />In the Norwegian army, branches, grass and local foliage are usually attached over the uniform, to break up the silhouette.Njkuyhhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12327455702642272127noreply@blogger.com