tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post1608192845856032462..comments2024-03-27T20:37:08.065+01:00Comments on Defence and Freedom: Stealth fighters and LPI radarUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-67691783840463163992012-09-12T09:45:46.169+02:002012-09-12T09:45:46.169+02:00Ah, I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the h...Ah, I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the heads-up, Sven!Cormoranthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16632371186959901249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-19562550150114556002012-09-09T19:54:17.949+02:002012-09-09T19:54:17.949+02:00http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_YF-22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_YF-22S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-43897170488574119482012-09-09T18:57:10.670+02:002012-09-09T18:57:10.670+02:00A small correction to make; Boyd died a few months...A small correction to make; Boyd died a few months before the maiden flight of the F-22, but he was apparently familiar with the aircraft. Mea culpa.Cormoranthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16632371186959901249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-72038432234969659502012-09-09T14:19:13.750+02:002012-09-09T14:19:13.750+02:00"Plus, even if it is too close, and someone t..."Plus, even if it is too close, and someone takes a long-ranged missile shot via ESM, the Raptor just has to shut its radar off, turn, and supercruise out of the missile's sensor cone." - B.Smitty<br /><br />That is assuming the pilot detects the missile in time; anti-radiation missiles are passive, meaning that you won't get early warning from RWR-systems. Any detection of the missile will be either from the onboard IR systems or by the pilot himself, visually. And that still requires the appropriate course of action, IE shutting off the radar. If the radar is active, spoofing an ARM is much more difficult.<br /><br />I fully agree with Sven's post here; the F-22 is no 'silver bullet' at all. Throwing money and technology at the problem is in direct contradiction to the now accepted theories of John Boyd. He was still alive when the F-22 first flew, and according to those who knew him well, hated it with a passion.<br /><br />I hope it isn't a problem that I'm responding to a fairly old post. I read this blog regularly, and I think it's one of the most interesting on the web, let alone in this subject.Cormoranthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16632371186959901249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-22037955537795862952009-09-02T22:41:31.549+02:002009-09-02T22:41:31.549+02:00Sven,
My money's still on the active Raptor &...Sven,<br /><br />My money's still on the active Raptor "looker" loitering at 50k+ft, with its best in class performance, to get out of most trouble. <br /><br />APG-77V(1) uses the T/R modules from the F-35 program, so it's not just 90's technology.B.Smittyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12650152449414871058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-8101298894050986692009-09-02T20:58:06.052+02:002009-09-02T20:58:06.052+02:00"APG-77 is, by most accounts, the most powerf..."APG-77 is, by most accounts, the most powerful radar yet installed on a fighter aircraft, and should be able to pick out any non-VLO target at very long range, especially if it is queued by AWACS."<br /><br />IF.<br />It's unlikely to be in a LPI mode if it exploits its emission power, though. That does effectively mean that both would likely see each other.<br />And there's still the possibility of successful jamming, even against a powerful radar (that's actually mid-90's vintage; do you recall mid-90's computer tech?).<br /><br />"The "looker" Raptors could very well sit back at idle speeds to locate targets."<br /><br />That's quite risky, as it wouldn't be able to react much to any surprising problems while flying slowly.<br /><br />IRST is a tool for target identification and for sneaking up on enemies. It's stealth by no emission instead of stealth by little reflection. I mentioned it because it comes really into play against enemies who use passive radar only (as in your example).S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-35967965807347058702009-09-02T20:13:33.382+02:002009-09-02T20:13:33.382+02:00APG-77 is, by most accounts, the most powerful rad...APG-77 is, by most accounts, the most powerful radar yet installed on a fighter aircraft, and should be able to pick out any non-VLO target at very long range, especially if it is queued by AWACS.<br /><br />Fighter-to-fighter, net-centric datalinks, especially on stealth aircraft, are certainly still in their infancy. With luck (and funding) the F-22/F-35 datalinks will grow in sophistication and capability over time.<br /><br />Just because the F-22 can supercruise doesn't mean it has to. The "looker" Raptors could very well sit back at idle speeds to locate targets. <br /><br />Plus, even if it is too close, and someone takes a long-ranged missile shot via ESM, the Raptor just has to shut its radar off, turn, and supercruise out of the missile's sensor cone. <br /><br />I'm still skeptical of the value of IR sensors as wide area detectors. I can see their value for localizing passive ESM hits, but can they really search the volume needed in all weather conditions to be a reliable counter to stealth? Unfortunately, I just don't know enough about the state of the art in these systems.B.Smittyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12650152449414871058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-56996642039580213932009-09-02T18:52:55.119+02:002009-09-02T18:52:55.119+02:00The F-22 project had serious problems with establi...The F-22 project had serious problems with establishing active datalinks at all. That capability wasn't integrated into at least the first production aircraft.<br /><br />A datalink from one F-22 to another is only under certain assumptions of use.<br />The one with active radar needs to be out of weapons range from the enemy (or else it could shoot itself or get shot).<br />That condition is difficult to meet if you need to fly almost head-on to the enemy to have him in your radar's relatively small-angle 'cone'. Now add in the factor of super-cruise and it becomes quite questionable whether this capability is regularly useful.<br />The second, 'silent' F-22 needs to be closer or at similar range to make good use of the data, after all.<br />You would need to have a multi-directional trap to fully exploit your plan - and that can be had without stealth as well due to the limited fov of enemy fighter radars.<br /><br />Overall, data links between F-22's sound more like a security against surprises (flying in a chain formation, for example) than like a tactical advantage for a sneak shot.<br /><br />Btw, simple datalinks date back to 1960's automated interceptor systems (crude forms date back to WW2!) and don't deserve to be called "net-centric".<br /><br /><br />Passive ESM systems on stealth fighters may do what you expect them to do, but guess what; there's a similar concept built around air/air IRST such as on Russian (T-10 family, MiG-29) and European (Gripen, Typhoon, Rafale) fighters - the F-22 is missing such a system.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-31859120547738840202009-09-02T18:06:41.851+02:002009-09-02T18:06:41.851+02:00Sven,
The countermeasures from stealth fighter de...Sven,<br /><br />The countermeasures from stealth fighter developers isn't just LPI radars.<br /><br />Net-centric operations and passive detection systems are also tools that can be used to preserve stealth's advantages.<br /><br />Using net-centric tactics, one flight of Raptors could remain passive and stealthy, while receiving LPI datalink updates from another flight of Raptors who activate their radars. <br /><br />Passive ESM systems on stealth aircraft can permit them to wait for the optimal time to turn on their radars - essentially when it's too late for their opponent to do anything about it.B.Smittyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12650152449414871058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-20858226477857816292009-08-28T14:38:18.943+02:002009-08-28T14:38:18.943+02:00Well, there's a reason why the Air Force thoug...Well, there's a reason why the Air Force thought it necessary to spend much on a good radar.<br /><br />There are dozens of problems associated with a reliance on AEW&C, and dozens of arguments for a fighter radar. In the end, there's a possibility to do what you wrote, but it's not a robust option.<br /><br />The German Cold War Lampyridae concept was based on such an approach, but canceled. You wouldn't need a large and expensive aircraft if you could rely often on it being merely a flying missile launcher.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-55770927312901631162009-08-28T14:30:48.703+02:002009-08-28T14:30:48.703+02:00Not fully on topic, but isn't the usual tactic...Not fully on topic, but isn't the usual tactic to use an awacs as radar and have the fighters shut off their radar system to use only esm and basically act as missile launcher? With this system a stealth plane has its advantages.Defiantnoreply@blogger.com