tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post1523527253902102078..comments2024-03-27T20:37:08.065+01:00Comments on Defence and Freedom: Summary: Modern air defences for EuropeUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-35093434771996125112018-06-05T21:15:08.553+02:002018-06-05T21:15:08.553+02:00Minor correction. It's the XM914 variant of t...Minor correction. It's the XM914 variant of the M230, and they are designing either airburst or proximity rounds for it.<br /><br />The turret is the Moog Reconfigurable Integrated-weapons Platform (RIwP) that can handle a variety of weapon and sight combinations.B.Smittyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12650152449414871058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-33008917707243512202018-06-05T19:12:11.217+02:002018-06-05T19:12:11.217+02:00Here's the USMC solution to the low-end, GBAD ...Here's the USMC solution to the low-end, GBAD and Counter-UAS issue,<br /><br />https://news.usni.org/2018/06/04/marines-forward-deploy-portable-drone-killing-system?utm_source=USNI+News&utm_campaign=21b439b9c6-USNI_NEWS_DAILY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_0dd4a1450b-21b439b9c6-231517153&mc_cid=21b439b9c6&mc_eid=3efefd8cba<br /><br />Combines a fixed panel S-band AESA radar, with an optical system, an ECM system, the Coyote anti-drone UAV and what looks to be an M230LF 30mm cannon on an M-ATV (or pair of smaller 4x4 ATVs).<br /><br />I believe this is the result of the Ground Based Air Defense - On The Move effort (GBAD-OTM).<br /><br />Wonder if they plan to add an airburst round for the 30mm. Would make sense in this context.B.Smittyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12650152449414871058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-12070121482562878902018-05-29T23:38:13.565+02:002018-05-29T23:38:13.565+02:00Thanks for the answer.
Keeping the communication ...Thanks for the answer.<br /><br />Keeping the communication networks up should be a priority and I wonder to which extent backup solutions from generators to batteries are feasible. <br /><br />In general passive radar certainly does profit overproportionally from the increase in computing power and there seems to be considerable basic and advanced research going on which should yield better algorithms.<br /><br />Of course it is a complex topic which makes it hard to comprehend fully with it's implications.<br /><br />Firn Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-24606575499960953562018-05-27T14:46:01.825+02:002018-05-27T14:46:01.825+02:00Thanks for going off on that tangent.
While you a...Thanks for going off on that tangent.<br /><br />While you are right for the use of BC against hardend targets, how is the protection of weaker targets such as the civilian population producing the goods used in a conflict?<br /><br />The natural development of multiresistant bacteria strains for example offers itself for an artificial boost for sneak attacks to make medical care very difficult with a long enough incubation to be unnoticed with the usual detection measures.<br /><br />Regarding consumer drugs as weapons, I agree that it doesn't seem to be a suitable idea for Russia, but neither is Russia an industrial power with much capability for an arms race in comparison to Europe or the US. It would be more suitable for the existing and rising industrial powers beyond Russia in Asia. They are in a situation, where such a utilization could pay off and where other parts of world, such as Europe could be affected by the fallout as its specifically targeted at another culture's habits.KRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10725091310284220350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-21423969259081015452018-05-25T15:18:29.951+02:002018-05-25T15:18:29.951+02:00Given their lack of recoil, one could consider ele...Given their lack of recoil, one could consider elevated masts or aerostats equipped with lasers. This might not allow them to cover the super low altitude, NOE quad copters, but might be able to handle small drones above tree top height over a fairly wide area (weather dependent).<br /><br />To actually afford a gazillion RCWSes, and the vehicles to mount them on, the RCWSes would have to be upgraded versions of regular, multi-purpose RCWSes (e.g. M151 Protector on Stryker). <br /><br />I wonder if resurrecting the 25mm ACSW, with its air burst round, might make sense here, or the LW25 chain gun variant. Air burst rounds would appear to have a better chance of achieving hits on small, nimble drones like quad copters.<br /><br />https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2011/gunmissile/Thursday11790_Gloude.pdf<br /><br />Handling the low tier also seems like a good job for upgraded IFV armaments, especially if future IFVs will already have AESA radars for their Active Defense Systems.<br /><br />For the low/mid tier, another system worth mentioning is the MHTK missile. It's smaller and probably cheaper than Tamir.<br /><br />On the higher end, it might be worthwhile to consider an anti-drone drone (ADD). There are a range of options here, from a smallish drone carrying MHTK or other missiles, to larger drones carrying lasers or AAMs.<br /><br />If you look at the DoD tier system for UAVs,<br /><br />Table 1 UAVs Classification according to the US Department of Defense (DoD)<br />Category Size Maximum Gross Takeoff Weight (MGTW) (lbs) Normal Operating Altitude (ft) Airspeed (knots)<br />Group 1 Small 0-20 <1,200 AGL* <100<br />Group 2 Medium 21-55 <3,500 <250<br />Group 3 Large <1320 <18,000 MSL** <250<br />Group 4 Larger >1320 <18,000 MSL Any airspeed<br />Group 5 Largest >1320 >18,000 Any airspeed<br />*AGL = Above Ground Level<br />**MSL = Mean Sea Level<br />Note: If the UAS has even one characteristic of the next level, it is classified in that level.<br />Source: “Eyes of the Army” U.S. Army Roadmap for UAS 2010-2035<br /><br />So, roughly speaking, possible defenses might be,<br />Group 1 - RCWS, IFV, lasers, jamming, personal weapons (i.e. skeet shooting).<br />Group 2 - RCWS, IFV, jamming, MHTK, lasers<br />Group 3 - Tamir, lasers, existing V/SHORADs, ADD<br />Group 4 - SAM systems, fighters, ADD<br /><br />B.Smittyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12650152449414871058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-79292465352093269142018-05-25T09:53:38.558+02:002018-05-25T09:53:38.558+02:00Heavy AAA probably is not a thread for fighters/bo...Heavy AAA probably is not a thread for fighters/bombers launching o lot of gliding bombs (or swarms of tiny UAVs) far away (against "archers" you should use long range SAM). But heavy AAA could be the best counter to those "arrows".Bomber@https://www.blogger.com/profile/03671408715617177754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-74554674020176367732018-05-25T09:53:00.511+02:002018-05-25T09:53:00.511+02:00I am talking about flexibility: SPG's are more...I am talking about flexibility: SPG's are more flexible than Tamir (can fire smoke, mines, destroy "arrows", be "the killer king" of enemy troops,...), so better to have a lot of them available. If number of vehicles is a factor... then put two guns (seen in a russian prototype of a 152 mm SPG) or more in the every SPG!! (auto-loaders allow more than a gun in a vehicle). <br /><br />I am not a fan of kamikaze drones (as ALAS-A). Some multicopters are more flexible than some ALAS-A... for instance multicopters could provide video footage for damage assessment after artillery fire! <br />NOTE: I am thinking that those multicopters could act as CL-289 or Rheinmetall KZO UAVs: recording and/or emitting their flight (Scaneagle can act as communications relay).<br /><br />About radar power/size in a truck (plus airborne radar)... I think it is like gun range for SPGs: more is better... as long as you can keep your mobility.Bomber@https://www.blogger.com/profile/03671408715617177754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-52253751658713507962018-05-24T22:53:57.604+02:002018-05-24T22:53:57.604+02:00Unless you are using guided projectiles, heavy AA ...Unless you are using guided projectiles, heavy AA now makes little sense as attack aircraft can attack with precision from relatively high altitudes whilst flying sufficiently evasively.Chris Werbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12401452513193996839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-13407053723656199542018-05-24T12:42:33.142+02:002018-05-24T12:42:33.142+02:00SPGs can be used as heavy AAA and then one would h...SPGs can be used as heavy AAA and then one would have a substitute for Tamir. It's just questionable whether the available SPGs should be burdened with this, at least in the 'rear'.<br /><br />ALAS-A has the advantage of man-in-the-loop without a RF datalink, I don't trust the kamikaze drones that deppend on high bandwith radio links, but don't have proper directional antennas.<br /><br />I did not include a more powerful radar than Giraffe 4A because it should be versatile and becuase much of the air search should be done by airborne radars. The land-based radars are merely meant as backups. This is similar to what I wrote about naval AAW.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-49745286832305112932018-05-24T11:14:40.682+02:002018-05-24T11:14:40.682+02:00I think that the "rear" brigade radar sh...I think that the "rear" brigade radar should have more range (and power for jamming). So the "umbrella" (where the enemy fighters have to fly very low in order to not be engaged) will be larger. It's like naval forces: AWD + ASW frigates + OPV... or only "multi-mission" frigates?<br />NOTE: For a more limited range perhaps an APAR block 2 radar in a vehicle could perform very well joined with ESSM missiles. It will need development, but should be doable (TRML-4D seems an Airbus TRS-4D in a vehicle https://www.hensoldt.net/solutions/land/radar/mobile-multi-function-surveillance-and-target-acquisition-radar-trml-4d/ ).<br /><br />I also think that your proposal includes too many systems. HAMMR and long range missile are necessary, also the SAMs with IR seekers, and Early Warning... and MANPADS! But not Tamir, and to search enemies are better some small (recoverables but also expendables) UAVs, not ALAS-A... and if the enemy wants to give their positions firing their RCWS to a difficult target... that seems a good objective for artillery shells!<br />NOTE: Small UAVs like Scaneagle can fly above 5.000 m for hours, so (in the future) at lower altitudes the UAVs probably will be very small (and agile) multicopters (or swarms... but they should not be a thread if troops are supported with heavy AAA capable of "cleaning" a good sector of space quickly).<br /><br />RCWS are not cheap, they will cost a lot more money than a "simple" small multirotor programmed to do some aerobatics following a path. So, if you want to fire at small UAVs (instead of using smoke for concealment and/or jamming) probably you should use a lot of "light tanks" (for 35-40 mm autocannons) or weaponized UGVs (< 25 mm -if they could also operate from the roof of an APC... then they y could act as RCWS too!!-).Bomber@https://www.blogger.com/profile/03671408715617177754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-10760897955279381842018-05-24T00:10:35.314+02:002018-05-24T00:10:35.314+02:00I think lasers could certainly augment missiles. T...I think lasers could certainly augment missiles. There is a huge advantage in terms of cost per kill (particularly vs small drones), zero time of flight and magazine depth. I would guess that they offer less potential for collateral damage in the anti quadcopter role - those things are likely to turn up at very low altitude and close proximity and hurling lots of self destructing 20mm around at low angles might not be a lot better than 0.50 in terms of collateral damage. That said, the laser must have a very long range to have to deconflict - recent trials were limited by not being able to fire at targets above the horizon for that reason. Even though it would mean a substantially more expensive weapon and ammunition, I think time-fused projectiles make more sense than point detonating self destruct vs smaller drones and quadcopters etc. both in effectiveness and reduced danger/collateral damage.Chris Werbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12401452513193996839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-35150399982602368142018-05-23T14:21:52.377+02:002018-05-23T14:21:52.377+02:00High-powered lasers are super-easy to detect when ...High-powered lasers are super-easy to detect when 'firing' because the high energy beam ionises the air, which AFAIK is easily visible to suitably prepared IR, EO and RF sensors. A modern strike fighter can 'see' the beam almost as well as in Sci-fi space battles.<br /><br />Moreover, lasers are completely line of sight, and all those lock-on after launch missiles I mentioned are in part so promising because they do not require a LOS between launcher and target.<br /><br />It may be that strike fighters are better defeated by a bunch of converging 10-100 kW laser beams than missiles, but only below (beam scattering) clouds and snowfall/rainfall. I wouldn't prefer lasers over missiles unless there' reason to believe that either guidance or fuse are defeated. My answer to countermeasures is rather some redundancy of approaches than sci-fi weapons.<br /><br />Regarding smaller drones see my other comment.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-79478706345357203872018-05-23T13:48:21.032+02:002018-05-23T13:48:21.032+02:00I admit I'm reading this on my lunch break, bu...I admit I'm reading this on my lunch break, but I didn't see any mention of directed energy weapons, which appear to show a lot of promise. Even a 5kw version would work against smaller drones with a very low cost per engagement and a 30kw should be very capable vs even manned aircraft. It would appear to be unlikely for them to be located based on their emissions alone. Chris W.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-49801323893815727272018-05-22T22:41:24.928+02:002018-05-22T22:41:24.928+02:00Lasers and 50 mm guns are not suitable approaches ...Lasers and 50 mm guns are not suitable approaches against small drones that fly, glide, crawl, climb, run below treetop height and between buildings. You need a gazillion of defence systems against those, and that's affordable only if they are versatile and cheap. RCWS is my bet in this regard.<br /><br />Combat troops may additionally secure their bivouac with special equipment (including nets) and defend themselves with small arms.<br /><br />50 mm guns and specialised and thus few lasers sound rather like an answer to larger drones that fly above treetop and building roof heights. I suppose a gazillion of 20 mm RCWS can deal with that easily.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-89331996812714074852018-05-22T22:37:47.363+02:002018-05-22T22:37:47.363+02:00My opinion is that the neglect of NBC defence make...My opinion is that the neglect of NBC defence makes the use of BC agents by an aggressor more likely.<br />Infantry and scouts should at least have respiration and eye protection for one hour at hand, and this could be much more basic and lightweight than a classic NBC mask. The full NBC gear (gloves, boots, clothes, mask with straw port) should be stored in nearby motor vehicles.<br />The lightweight compact equipment should keep the men alive till they reach the comprehensive suite.<br /><br />A high readiness in this regard would reduce the promise of a BC first use without encumbering the infantry and scout troops too much.<br />---<br />About the consumer drug idea: That would backfire to Russia even worse and more reliably than the use of biological agents. It seems impractical.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-39176015008713822452018-05-22T22:32:43.109+02:002018-05-22T22:32:43.109+02:00Passive radar is either using the aircraft's e...Passive radar is either using the aircraft's emissions (then it's simply part of what the EW troops do) or it's about using reflections off aircraft without emissions from the receiver.<br /><br />I suppose radars could in part operate in a bi- or multistatic mode, especially when there's more than one ready for operation during a leap-frogging scheme or more static phases. This could be similar to bistatic or multistatic sonar. I don't remember having read anything about such radar operation, though.<br />Maybe there's something about it deep in the EW 103 or EW104 books, but I never bothered to read much of those.<br /><br />The popular notion of passive radar that makes it into newspapers and journals once in a while (cell phone mast and TV sender emissions reflected by stealth aircraft) is irrelevant in my opinion. There would be no such emissions on the battlefield because the electric grid would be powered down.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-59359343220555334062018-05-22T22:21:04.561+02:002018-05-22T22:21:04.561+02:00A very broad approach with interesting fine detail...A very broad approach with interesting fine details. Enjoyed the part about the rapid and detailed warning for ground troops. Very much a smart and capex-light addition or augmentation with a big potential pay-off.° <br /><br />You mentioned active radar, infrared and infrasound. What is your take on passive radar? <br /><br />Firn<br /><br />°Reminded me about the increasingly granular warning zones in Israel which are one of the reasons why investments in civil defence were by far the most cost-efficient. <br /><br />"Israel's $140 million investment in warning systems has yielded increasingly precise alerts (State of Israel 2015, 110); the country was divided into only 25 warning zones in 2006, but 248 in 2015 (Isby and Richardson 2014; Lappin 2015). Three thousand zones are expected by 2018 (Cohen 2016)."<br /><br />https://academic.oup.com/jogss/article/3/2/113/4964794Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-85602480684161502122018-05-19T22:18:53.773+02:002018-05-19T22:18:53.773+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.KRThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10725091310284220350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-53622166907568983052018-05-19T17:53:41.247+02:002018-05-19T17:53:41.247+02:00Lasers may just about be to the point where they c...Lasers may just about be to the point where they can do the counter drone mission. <br /><br />Also the 50mm EAPS gun with course correcting rounds would be a good C-RAM and anti drone candidate, if development continues.B.Smittyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12650152449414871058noreply@blogger.com