tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post7720424836101844283..comments2024-03-27T20:37:08.065+01:00Comments on Defence and Freedom: Historical crappy ideas. Today: "Fall Blau"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-34436565653866029902016-06-11T14:32:50.041+02:002016-06-11T14:32:50.041+02:00Get yourself a university password (of a historica...Get yourself a university password (of a historical faculty) and search the research journals world-wide. It's a very, very specific quetion with no doubt a largely uninteresting answer, so only deep research literature research is likely to yield a good result, if anything.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-67387599835843440392016-06-11T10:17:43.383+02:002016-06-11T10:17:43.383+02:00Hello,
Besides the various theories (some of them ...Hello,<br />Besides the various theories (some of them so obvious and others really unconvincing) that are known; is there any documentation, in German or other language, about Operation Clausewitz (1945)?<br />Thank you.<br />Regards,<br />S.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-23433355092611423702012-07-06T08:20:29.978+02:002012-07-06T08:20:29.978+02:00Fall Blau developed as a logical consequence of ta...Fall Blau developed as a logical consequence of taking Crimean Peninsula. Hitler hadn't enough heavy artillery to take both Leningrad and Sevastopol (although I agree taking Leningrad and using ship lanes to deliver supplies to the overstreched army lines may have been a better idea) so he had to take a pick. He always saw the threat of long-range bombers attacking the Ploiesti oilfieds (and thus efficiently put a stop to the German war machine) and that's why he regarded both Sicily and Crimea as "huge natural airfields" and wanted to keep those regions boogie-free. The whole late war revolved around Romania and possible threats to its territory because that was the main reliable source for all Axis motorized effort. <br />After taking Crimea the plan developed quite soundly - because the Caucasus was to be invaded not only from the above but also through Kerch narrows letting the Germans open 2 separate fronts. Speed was seen as being the key-factor, that's why they stripped all vehicles from the Army Group B and assigned them to A. There was no plan to advance and clash the West forces into Persia although these may develop at a later date if everything went fine. West advance into southern Russia to repel the germans would have been a real pain and also seen as a political blunder by the soviets. Stalin specifically asked the Western Powers only war materiel and never troops in USSR operational theatre. However due to the potential German menace the British might have seen the need to squander their already limited resources to defend this new threat - thus ending the pressure in Egypt. Actually what doomed the 3rd Reich was its inability to perceive even the slightest threat in to US military power. They always regarded "the Americans" as being a third rate military power, albeit a first-rate economy. <br />Thus, prime targets for the Wehrmacht were Murmansk, Vladivostok and Caucasus. Because of political issues (Finns didn't want to be involved into offensive actions into Russian territory, Japanese signed a non-agression pact with the Soviets), Caucasus was the only way they could hope to hinder the allied help to Soviets. Should Hitler have seen the danger of an American invasion to North Africa he might have refrain from acting offensively in Russia, instead building defenses and buying time. <br />If the bulk of Wehrmacht forces could have been pitted against Western forces (which didn't have the luxury of numbers as Russians did) then the Allied invasion might have been repelled indefinitely and they might have the upper hand to deal with the soviets later in the war. <br />The upcoming development of the A-bomb might have switch the war into a Cold one on the "tertium gaudens" principle. A stalemate with the Soviets would have assured none of these states is capable to mount a threat to Western World and their colonies at that time. <br />As it is today, assassinating one State's most valued scientists is far easier and cheaper than going full scale war with that nation.Parsifalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-57677848340010974902011-05-02T01:59:00.266+02:002011-05-02T01:59:00.266+02:00To be honest: When I'm in the mood.
- - -
Thir...To be honest: When I'm in the mood.<br />- - -<br />Third phase would likely see an attack on Moscow from south because of the terrains.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-36044968437073767302011-05-02T01:12:58.506+02:002011-05-02T01:12:58.506+02:00when is the next exotic weapon?when is the next exotic weapon?R L-Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608966739790796180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-31145658162570328282011-05-02T01:12:01.202+02:002011-05-02T01:12:01.202+02:00First two phases good but third needs too be worke...First two phases good but third needs too be worked on unless it was an audacious battle plan. As far as I know Hitler had too much to do with the planing, like Stalin. Both were untrained and convinced of their 'godly' powers. as we all know Stalingrad became a symbolic battle, Hitler had to fight it.R L-Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12608966739790796180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-48023204122578029352011-05-01T22:47:04.582+02:002011-05-01T22:47:04.582+02:00@mike
Relax. I'm not particularly nationalist...@mike<br /><br />Relax. I'm not particularly nationalistic, nor easily offended. It's just that I'd never that word before. The only "Romi" I've heard of are the Gypsies - and calling a Romanian that won't get you far with him/her :-)<br /><br />To answer your question - quite simply, there was no other choice for Romania.<br />Going to war alone with any of the countries you mentioned would have resulted in disaster.<br />Neutrality was not a realistic option - Hitler wanted Romanian oil, Stalin wanted to deny him that.<br />Alliance with the Soviets was simply out of the question...<br /><br />So, joining the Axis was pretty much the only option left. Plus, Antonescu apparently believed that the Wehrmacht was capable of winning the war.<br />Also, he was hoping that by proving loyalty to the German cause, Hitler would return northern Transylvania (this is not a joke).<br /><br />@Sven<br />To be fair, the Romanian army did manage to recover (with French assistance, of course) from the disaster of 1916, and even managed to defeat the German army in 1917. <br /><br />Also, the reason why Romania switched sides in 1944 was the fear of being annexed by the Soviets. But hey, at least my lovely Bucharest (sarcasm here) had the rare privilege of being bombed by both sides (USAF and the Luftwaffe)Daniel Ihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00531214208251061249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-15091708247082197142011-05-01T18:46:33.120+02:002011-05-01T18:46:33.120+02:00A German Panzer Division at the Romanian oil field...A German Panzer Division at the Romanian oil fields at Ploesti in '41 meant that Romania would lose no more territories.<br /><br />It would have been overrun like Yugoslavia or like in 1916 if it had turned to the Allies before '44.<br /><br />Now the only thing it had to gain by fighting as Hitler's ally was <br /># short-term security against Germany, Bulgaria and Hungary<br /># take back Bessarabia at leastS Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-57915912178689452962011-05-01T17:55:42.833+02:002011-05-01T17:55:42.833+02:00Daniel I:
Please accept apologies for my attempt ...Daniel I:<br /><br />Please accept apologies for my attempt at shorthand, no offense was intended.<br /><br />I am interested though on the history of that period. I have always understood that Romania was forced into giving away Bessarabia, Bukovina, northern Transylvania, and Dobruja by Hitler. That was probably as revenge for joining with the Allies in WW-I. So tell me this: how does allying with Germany in WW-2 get back the territory lost to Hungary and Bulgaria? Why not declare war on those two countries in addition to going after the Soviets? And why join the Axis in November of 1940 when Hitler had a non-aggression pact with Stalin at that time? Why join the Axis when Hungary, who had stolen northern Transylvania with Hitler's approval, was already allied with Germany? Why participate in 'Fall Blau' with the Hungarians as your ally?<br /><br />I suspect taht Herr Hitler was much better at Central European foreign policy than he was at strategy. But than that is not saying much.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-36869738472504968862011-05-01T13:26:45.311+02:002011-05-01T13:26:45.311+02:00"could have had more success if they had sent..."could have had more success if they had sent the Romi's, Hungarians, Slovaks, and Italians to Greece and Yugoslavia"<br /><br />1. "Romi" ??? Who (or what) are those ?<br />2. I don't know about the other armies mentioned, but it's highly unlikely the Romanian army would have been more motivated against the Serbs or the Greeks.<br /><br />For a thing, diplomatic relations between Romania and Yugoslavia were excellent in the inter-war years. Going to war against them would have been an EXTREMELY unpopular political move.<br /><br />As unconceivable as it may seem, Romania was actually pursuing specific goals in World War Two (I know, who'd have thought of that ?). Namely, getting back the territory it had lost to Hungary and the Soviet Union. Antonescu was more than Hitler's puppet.Daniel Ihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00531214208251061249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-11732072057171471982011-04-30T11:11:51.847+02:002011-04-30T11:11:51.847+02:00That's what Glantz/House wrote. It's also ...That's what Glantz/House wrote. It's also very reasonable. The much less fanatic Dutch did also thoroughly destroy their refinery in Dutch East Indies, the Japanese got almost no fuel from it in 42-45.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-82059507729849564082011-04-30T06:01:19.825+02:002011-04-30T06:01:19.825+02:00Nice analysis.
I need to mull it over for awhil...Nice analysis. <br /><br />I need to mull it over for awhile. You are right that the Romanian Armies were a weak link. I have always wondered if the plan, as flawed as it was, could have had more success if they had sent the Romi's, Hungarians, Slovaks, and Italians to Greece and Yugoslavia. An then giving Army Group South more German units and better unity of command???<br /><br />Also, was Maikop completely destroyed, with no POL coming out of there???mikenoreply@blogger.com