tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post9185752801755712368..comments2024-03-27T20:37:08.065+01:00Comments on Defence and Freedom: Sub vs ASW ship: The range mysteryUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-85362471427636521292010-09-16T20:23:07.861+02:002010-09-16T20:23:07.861+02:00Couple of thoughts--
While heavy weight torpedoes...Couple of thoughts--<br /><br />While heavy weight torpedoes are uncommon on Western escorts the Krivaks and several other classes of Soviet escorts carried heavy weight torpedoes. <br /><br />Ship vs Sub is seldom one on one. ASW done right is a multi-unit exercise. While the reliability of one helicopter might be problematic, in a force that includes 6 to 12 helicopters it is less of a problem. The Japanese seem to have this figured out very well with four standing ASW groups of eight ships, one DDH (starting to look like light carriers), two AEGIS, and five other ships. <br /><br />If the helo is you primary ASW weapon, then the missiles and over the side torpedoes are viewed as quick response weapons to be used when you are surprised by finding a submarine nearby. <br /><br />I do also see that sending a missile could simplify getting a target solution when all you have is a fleeting contact beyond direct path in a convergence zone. Getting a solution for a torpedo requires estimates of course and speed that would not be required for a missile. This looks to be more to the surface TG's advantage than the subs, because the sub reveals its position by firing a missile, that isn't an issue for the ships.Chuck Hillhttp://cgblog.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-31493228903779324372009-06-26T15:50:40.664+02:002009-06-26T15:50:40.664+02:00The South Koreans announced such an ASW missile, s...The South Koreans announced such an ASW missile, specs are unknown to me.<br />http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/06/113_47231.html<br />"more than 20 km"S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-48323305125973778482009-06-11T01:06:23.013+02:002009-06-11T01:06:23.013+02:00Yes, I overlooked that in the confusing variety of...Yes, I overlooked that in the confusing variety of the Klub family of missiles.<br /><br />"The supersonic 91RE1 (long) and 91RE2 (short) types are anti-submarine missiles, armed with a 324mm self-homing torpedo. Both types go ballistic after launch, directed to the target area via INS. Their ranges are 50 and 40 km, respectively."<br />http://warfare.ru/?catid=312&linkid=2181S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-79101782545049546832009-06-11T00:50:35.383+02:002009-06-11T00:50:35.383+02:00The Russians also have the 91RE2 ASW missile. It c...The Russians also have the 91RE2 ASW missile. It can be launched from the same VLS as the Onix SSM. It has range of 40 km in its export version.mitkonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-64546406550293068822009-06-09T22:48:57.517+02:002009-06-09T22:48:57.517+02:00There are additional factors.
Torpedoes depend on ...There are additional factors.<br />Torpedoes depend on wire /fibre-optic cable datalink till their terminal homing phase.<br /><br />Imagine a torpedo launch was detected late. The sub is at missile range +1 km and it's too late to outrun the torpedo.<br />There's no way how to engage it to force evasive maneuvers (breaking the wire) or to even destroy it before the torpedo enters terminal homing distance to its target.<br /><br />The simple high speed torpedo run scenario isn't the most interesting because the range is reduced very much by high speed (and high speed is noisy).<br /><br />The Lance project with its long range is in my opinion an indicator for a larger range requirement than ASROC's.<br /><br />I cannot play through all relevant scenarios in a tiny blog post. The subject is large enough for a dissertation (as too often).S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-39268553647601545612009-06-09T21:25:13.171+02:002009-06-09T21:25:13.171+02:00if a ship detects a torpedo attack early it can ou...if a ship detects a torpedo attack early it can outrun it. from my calculation the minimal range at which a adcap can no longer outrunned is slightly less than 20 km. (assuming straight running)<br />in this case a sub is within the asroc range. you may call it a optimistic scenario because it needs early warning but if you can not detect a torpedo attack at a range of 20 km you don't need a asw missile with a greater range because you are not able to detect a sub at this range and you can't shot at something you can not detect and track.<br /><br />asw warfare isn't a question of weapon range, it is a question of sensor range. that's the reason why asw helo's are so useful. they can dispense sonobuoys quickly and they can dipping around. the sensor ranges are limited but they can repositioned in a very short time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-66850162091830861992009-06-09T15:11:44.298+02:002009-06-09T15:11:44.298+02:00As far as peacetime signatures, I would bet that s...As far as peacetime signatures, I would bet that some subs have peacetime and wartime emission modes.<br /><br />As far as firing solutions, unmanned drones and unemanned underwater vehicles are the best (and cheapest in material and labor) option for the future.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-19572400066474309792009-06-09T13:58:48.509+02:002009-06-09T13:58:48.509+02:00Sure, any frequent watcher of modern sub movies :-...Sure, any frequent watcher of modern sub movies :-) knows about sound signature databases. <br /><br />But: I very much doubt that "I hear something" is identical to "I know what it is" let alone "I know _who_ this is". And the "where exactly" is yet another question.Merowingernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-11804136868475043362009-06-09T01:08:21.851+02:002009-06-09T01:08:21.851+02:00I think I already addressed (b) indirectly.
Passi...I think I already addressed (b) indirectly.<br /><br />Passive sonar target identification is based on target sound profiles. You listen to ships at peacetime and catalog them, so you'll recognize classes (and possibly even individual ships) by their sound profile in wartime.<br />Well, unless Murphy's Law is in effect.S Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03359796414832859686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-386077914312449748.post-58844780693277099112009-06-09T00:49:13.848+02:002009-06-09T00:49:13.848+02:00Some thoughts on ASROC range: I am not a submarine...Some thoughts on ASROC range: I am not a submarine guy, so please bear with me. I would expect that the heavy torpedo range does not matter that much because <br /><br />a) torpedoes usually aren't shot in a straight line, and can be set up to run many different attack scenarios; think cruise missile and way point navigation; and<br /><br />b) a slow sub (chasing another slow sub) and shooting a slow torpedo needs to cover quite some distance with its weapon because the target is moving away; that's not so for ASCROC since it moves much faster and the figthing happens quicker.<br /><br />Then c) I believe ASCROC and the like might be of particular value in shallow and confined waters with difficult sonar conditions, where both sides are operating in a fog situation and might end up being much closer to each other than usually desired by a surface ship.<br /><br />Finally: I am curious what is possible in terms of distance when it comes to reliably identifying a (passive) sonar contact. A sub is not likely to receive high quality position and identification data based upon radar, SIGINT or airborne reconnaissance. So even if a contact might be in range, you wouldn't know if it is the right one to spend an expensive torpedo on.Merowingernoreply@blogger.com