2024/01/28

Do the British carriers make sense?

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The article

"Floating mausoleums to political vanity: Our two new aircraft carriers cost almost £8 billion to build but, with the Middle East on fire, they're languishing in Portsmouth. We'd be better off selling them, says DAVID PATRIKARAKOS"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13011743/aircraft-carriers-8-billion-middle-east-portsmouth.html

creates a bit of a stir.

Some online responses claim that it's error-ridden while agreeing somewhat. 

I would certainly have edited the part about the missile threat to carriers; the anti-ship cruise missile threat appears to be in check IF the attacked ship or a well-positioned escort is on alert. The old and neglected Moskva probably didn't even have effective combat systems and no proper damage control preparations when it was struck by two missiles.

I would point at the "ballistic" anti-ship missile threat instead; the British carriers (and the American ones!) may be kept out of the range of Houthi ballistic anti-ship missiles because they pose too much of a risk. The British escorts are likely less well-equipped to deal with that threat than the American ones, at least that's what I read from the success of American-made SAMs against ballistic missiles and the development of a new generation of Aster missiles (the British escorts' SAM) to improve anti-ballistic missile ability.

I picked the British carriers as examples for the cost of carrier aviation relative to land-based airpower about 15 years ago. The high costs were never a secret or news.

Nor was the issue of the British not really buying enough F-35 for two carriers to make sense any insider knowledge:


There's not really much new about the naval vs. land-based aviation argument.

The American carriers are instruments for land attack against countries that cannot effectively defend themselves against it, and it's been that way since late 1943. Most other carriers showed marginal utility since then.

Land-based aviation has come such a way that bombing Afghanistan from Diego Suarez and Kuwait was more practical than bombing over Afghanistan using carrier-based aircraft. Midair refuelling is the key, and navies try to ignore it because midair-refueling using converted (plentiful) airliners extends the airpower-dominated maritime areas so much that surface fleets make very little sense in a peer war. They need to be either awfully far away from hostile land or enjoy land-based assistance by fighters (which usually means that the carrier isn't needed as a base in the scenario).

Personally, I think that CROWSNEST (having an airborne early warning helicopter) was the brightest part of the British carrier investment effort of the past 20 years (albeit it's apparently technically not terribly great). Rotary AEW assets coupled with lock-on after launch surface to air missiles can substitute for carrier fighters in the defensive role, and likely cope much better with surprise saturation attacks than carrier fighters could. Admirals would prefer to have the fighters as additional defence layer (and their radars as additional sensors), but admirals are not known for being good at allocation of scarce resources (budget) for very good reasons.

A small carrier with affordable combat aircraft (Harrier II with APG-83 and modern air-to-air missiles) might nevertheless make much sense in some scenarios, but only so if ambition and costs are kept small. A few such 15,000 tons carriers with enough aircraft for three on station and three on 5-minute readiness as interceptors could make quite a difference as escort carrier between Japan and Hawaii. The Americans have no need for these, as they could improvise with land-based AEW and their amphibious carriers, of course.


So what's a single French carrier good for? Launching a few airborne missiles throughout four decades of service? That could be substituted for by a chartered small cargo ship and some containerised cruise missiles.

What are two British carriers with effectively one air wing good for? The British delude themselves into thinking they can do American-style land attack in every year (the French cannot when their carrier is in the shipyard for maintenance). That's it. Again, buying some standard (not capsuled for submarine use) surface-launched cruise missiles to be launched from some otherwise non-combat ships (volume and deck area on frigates and destroyers is too scarce) would yield about the same land attack capability, especially paired with midair-refuelled land-based combat aircraft being in range (within thousands of kilometres and if necessary overflight rights).


Other (online) commentary I saw recently called for a British focus on the naval realm, at the expense of the land forces. But what could be achieved in the naval realm? Russia has a crap navy and China has a navy on the far side of the globe that could very largely be neutralised by land-based aviation. So what's to be gained by adding a couple more British warships? Prettier naval parades for more tourism? Navy enthusiasts being happy? (Navy enthusiasts always want more, though. They're never happy!)


Here are musings about what could/should have been done for security in Europe instead, spending-wise:

/2016/12/what-europeans-could-do-for-more.html

That would have been much less "sexy" than aircraft carriers that could fit tennis courts inside.


related:

/2010/03/naval-procurement.html

/2010/09/almost-unique-british-defence.html 

/2013/03/rebuttal-to-mcgrathid-about-carrier.html

/2016/12/musings-about-naval-power-in-european.html

/2018/04/a-deconstruction-of-micc-propaganda.html

/2023/04/chinas-naval-geography-problem-and-usn.html


 



 



S O

defence_and_freedom@gmx.de

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16 comments:

  1. I think carriers are useful against poor defenceless countries or where can attain overwhelmy superiority.

    Against a peer enemy I would use it only in open seas like Pacific (where would be mandatory) , Atlantic, etc or in locations where the enemy don't have enough reach.

    In conclusion, British carriers only make sense against poor, defenceless countries where maybe they wouldn't be necessary or operating together US Navy where they would be a way of justification for making UK subservient to US politics and objectives that maybe is not in the interest of UK citizens.

    A third useful option would be a way of fast support for a NATO ally in case of attack, but I am afraid is not what British politicians and admirals are thinking.

    JM

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  2. France as, technically, as it's only thanks to is numerous overseas territories, the biggest EEZ* in the world, so yes it's quite useful to have a carrier that can battle any kind of local aviation from people that want to grab it if they are not the US or China, well like the UK discovered in the Falklands War when even a old carrier was useful in that kind of operation... a part from that is quite good for ''showing the flag'' operations and it's considered even a deterrent against agressions and there is the fact that it can give a good help to any operation to take nationals that are in danger in some country that got some kind of internal disaster and/or civil war.
    I assume the UK is just copying the US Navy that is still using WW2 fleet mentality but a good naval aviation, is always useful, it's more expensive on a carrier but still. In fact I think that one big nuke carrier catapult-type, even if it cannot be operational all the time, is better than the two UK carrier, starting by the fact it can use dedicated AWACS like the Hawkeye.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone_of_France

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    1. They have hardly any OPV for their huge South Pacific EEZ and I think their carrier never visited it. The size of an EEZ doesn't mean much of anything, anyway.

      The Russians on their own are crap and a small threat to NATO. They would be more relevant if reinforced by the Chinese, but what use would three UK/FRA carriers have against a PLAAF (currently around 1,000 active 4th to 5th gen tactical combat aircraft) deployed to East Europe? Practically zero. They wouldn't even be used in its range.

      Look forward a decade or two and the PLAAF might be able to spare 1k combat aircraft for European Russia.

      Geography and logistics keep the PLN near-irrelevant in Med & North Atlantic (save for a potential SSN deployment).

      Carriers are neither cost-effective nor relevant for serious war defence. They're for land attack on brown people, which is not a worthy cause.

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    2. Maybe the Soviets (and the Russians but much less) had a good combo with their long range maritime bombers and their big antiship/carriers missiles that would have been used, Tom Clancy's style, primarily against carriers groups. Plus some dedicated naval long range fighter (the Soviets had the horrible VTOL Yak-38 on small carriers) and LR reco dedicated aircraft, a serious coastal defense and some subs and you have a good mix for any medium power to act in a war vs. a peer navy...
      For the French maybe their SSNs are better to deploy in the pacific that an carrier, in case of danger for their territories.

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    3. The Soviets were really only deterring a NATO fleet incursion into their SSBN bastion up north.
      Their ability to target convoys on the New England-England route was very limited due to the state of the tech of the time (they used 60's and very early 70's tech in the 80's).

      It should be NATO policy to consider SSBNs non-targets, as hunting them could provoke a panic first strike on cities or ICBM silos.

      The French SSNs are rather small and I think not habitable enough for patrols that far away, even using New Caledonia as a base.

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    4. Still even the little Rubis class could get deplyed:
      https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/02/a-french-navy-ssn-patrolled-the-south-china-sea/
      The new class is bigger, but they onl have a limited number of them.

      Agreed on SSBN's hunt policy. I personally hope we will see more didicated LR naval bombers. As soon as the 80s there were projects (don't know how serious) in the US we the ubiquitioous 747 Jumbo Jet to make a ''missile truck''/naval bomber with a lot of antishiping cruise missiles or tomahawks. But the WW2 mentality is still there in all the navies even if dedicated naval bombers were very useful in...WW2. It's also strange to see China not copying the USSR playbook and see how they want to recreate their own USN. Carriers are still a big asset in propaganda/jingoistic/national pride categories.

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  3. JF-17 :

    www.pakmil.net/forum/pakistan-air-force/239-jf-17-development-procurement-programme-news-discussions#post728

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  4. Carriers might have a role in securing sea lines of communication, which includes ships and Internet cables. While land based aviation is superior, a carrier might be a useful component to support an amphibious force that builds a base for land based aviation, similar to what the British did in the Falklands. Fixed wing might make less sense than rotary wings and these shouldn't be too big, so overall smaller and amphibious carriers with sea control capability would make sense for non-major powers such Britain, France, Germany, Australia, Spain, Italy, Brazil or South Korea.

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    Replies
    1. Carriers protecting undersea cables? In what reality?

      Carriers can provide fighter cover for convoys similar to how 20th century battleships were really not much more useful than for convoy actions.
      https://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.com/2018/04/two-dominant-battleship-designs-and.html
      But that doesn't mean carriers are a better idea than to use rotary AEW + LOAL area defence SAMs (both of which could be based on armed merchantmen) and the Americans already have enough ships (and no more really suitable fixed wing VTOL combat aircraft), thus don't need CVEs.

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  5. A rising empire consistently needs two powers to replace the previous one: Reserve Currency and Top Navy. UK had these and peaked in 1919-1920. US came next. Looking at recent history US Navy ships peaked in 1987 and USD gold value in 1999. Not sure what this means but China is making a serious Navy right now.

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    1. I don't remember the Mongol central bank and all I remember of the Mongol navy is that it had typhoon issues.

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    2. Fair points. But I wouldn't call Genghis' raid and loot and empire.

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    3. The Mongols and the Venetians had a fair amount of interaction between their currencies. Venice then was the dominant naval and financial power to Europe. Europe is a peninsula of peninsulas, so the power we brought to the global stage was very naval shaped. The world currently still is under the European spell by American proxy, because we made the large horse herds of the Eurasian grasslands militarily irrelevant. A new pattern might emerge with better connectivity by road and rail all over the Eurasian world island.
      The Venetians in combination with the Mongols were part of major gold and silver currency manipulations in Europe that enriched them. The Mongols themselves greatly improved transport and brought standardization across Eurasia, which the Chinese would like to repeat.

      However, I get Sven's point that in terms of trade by value, aviation is more important than shipping and land based aviation creates a shrinking space for surface ships by extending the range of "a ship's a fool to fight a fort" far out into the oceans. The crucial weakness in Sven's analysis might be the energy supply, which still often needs ships in order to keep everything else moving. It's different world from wind and grass as means of propulsion, because fossil fuels and possible replacements all need protected storage sites to keep ships and aircraft operational. This is akin to the grain storage in forts of old. Global influence can likely be measured in terms of who has the currency to which the flow of energy and information are pegged. Both, the flow of energy in forms of grain, coal and oil, and information as letters and stories, formerly required navies, but today could be done via pipelines and cables often replacing ships.

      To break it down, the dominant power exerts a large power over the means of exchange of goods, energy and information which is expressed in accepting their monetary standard for exchanges. It's possible that China gains in this regard, even without a superior blue water navy, because it's possible to exchange these by more means than just ship. The railway seriously upended transport costs of old. China could accomplish much transport protection with a green water navy, or land based aviation Sven suggests, along the coasts, while the US has the higher costs of a blue water navy that needs to sail the oceans. So the dominant power doesn't need the dominant navy any more to dominate all forms of exchange.

      The Belt and Road Initiative, as messed up and chaotic as it is, creates a trade route structure that could allow an inferior Chinese navy to go toe to toe with the US and win in terms of centrality of transport and global economic integration. The clear advantage of the US in connecting global information transfers between Europe and themselves likely loses importance, with new information routes gaining ground with the growing wealth along the Indo-Pacific coasts, where China is a serious contender laying cables.

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  6. I believe that the only reason the British keep on with aircraft carriers is their need to deter Argentina from trying again to retake the Falklands.

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  7. Yes. It makes sense - for the British.

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  8. I totally agree. Carriers are only useful against inferior opponents - until they purchase numerous land-sea missiles from Iran / China ... And the cost of a carrier is tremendous : the ship, the aircrafts, the escort (2 destroyers / frigates are not enough in a real conflict, should be above 6-8). By the same token, amphibious ships (Mistral, Albion ...) are a non-starter.
    For France and UK, I would suggest focusing on OPV (minimal weapons) to show the flag & protect the EEZ eg. from predatory fishing by China, plus counter-mines, some cargos full of cruise missiles and a couple of RORO to intervene ashore, plus attack submarines. Bear in mind that in less than 10 years progress in batteries will make electric submarines equivalent to SSNs ie. limited by crew morale and fresh food.

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